41 Comments

1. 

   talljohn777

   Aug 28, 2014 at 2:54 am

   I understand Bagger Vance may be available…

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2. 

   Tin Whistle

   Aug 27, 2014 at 11:06 pm

   Slicefixer already fixed Tiger’s swing in Encyclopedia Texarkana (p 48-49)…
   Tiger, call Geoff…
   Geoff, if Tiger calls can I get a free lesson?

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3. 

   dwntnbrown

   Aug 27, 2014 at 7:29 pm

   who gives a flying f— about tiggggger woods

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4. 

   Prototype

   Aug 27, 2014 at 4:28 pm

   Tiger needs to call Monty Scheinblum ASAP. He can fix Tiger’s swing in very little time

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   • 

     Richard Grime

     Aug 28, 2014 at 3:33 pm

     I’ll second that!
     Monte would have him being able to drive the ball well!

     Reply Report comment
5. 

   Jack Nash

   Aug 27, 2014 at 2:16 pm

   Bravo, Kevin! Well said.

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6. 

   Tom

   Aug 27, 2014 at 2:04 pm

   it’s about $$. butch (anyone) can be bought. if tiger wants butch, tiger will get butch. therefore, this article is bunk.

   Reply Report comment
   • 

     ALAN JARRARD

     Aug 27, 2014 at 2:22 pm

     TIGER IS IN MAJOR NEED OF MAJOR HELP TO WIN ANOTHER MAJOR, BUT HARMON WHO IN MY HUMBLE OPINION IS SIMPLY THE BEST HAS NO NEED FOR TIGER IF TIGER NEVER WINS AGAIN BUTCH STILL HAS THE BEST RECORD EVER WITH TIGER , NORMAN ETC.
     SO IF TIGER GETS BUTCH BACK ON BOARD WOULD REQUIRE SOME MAJOR HUMBLE PIE NOT A TIGER MEAL EVER , BUT TIGER WANTS 18 MAJORS , ONLY CHANCE IS VIA BUTCH QUICKLY AS IN SANTA BUTCH UNDER TIGERS TREE. OR TIGER MAY NEVER WIN ZIP AGAIN AND MIGHT NOT PLAY MUCH EITHER TO MANY CRUNCHES TOOK THEIR TOLL BEING BUFF BALL IN THE ROUGH.

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   • 

     Lee

     Aug 27, 2014 at 3:02 pm

     Agreed all about the $$$$$, that’s why they parted in the first place and the main reason they won’t be a partnership again.

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7. 

   Rumble

   Aug 27, 2014 at 10:30 am

   I don’t buy the aging argument. Sports medicine and the “science” of the swing and bio-mechanics have come a long way since the reign of Nicklaus. Nicklaus won 6 majors after turning 35, including two when he was 40. Tiger is also only one major behind Nicklaus for their comparable ages. They both had very similar plateaus as well.

   Other publishers on this website have discussed in detail with video evidence of some things under Foley that are not “technically sound”, such as releasing the driver to late by attempting to manipulate the handle.

   All of this together, including the ego, will probably mean the end of 12 shot victories in the majors; however, if Tiger gets back to basics and feel in his golf swing the talent is still there, making him a real threat to pull off a few more victories by age 46. Which is 8 years from now, and coincides with Nicklaus’ last major victory.

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8. 

   Sam Adams

   Aug 27, 2014 at 9:43 am

   Great article! I agree that Tiger needs to do it himself. He’s always felt he knew more than his coaches.

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9. 

   Joe Golfer

   Aug 27, 2014 at 1:52 am

   Good article.
   I agree that it will never happen. Two large egos that wouldn’t get along with each other, especially with their past history.
   One thing that Harmon did very well was to get Tiger to use a wider stance. With that stance, he wasn’t playing his ball position on his drives off of his front toe, as he sometimes is now. He didn’t have to try to catch up with his hands, either having a late release that led to a push or a forced quick release that produced a hook, which seems to be rather common in his current game.
   See this other GolfWRX article for confirmation of same:
   http://www.golfwrx.com/239665/clark-tigers-excessive-shaft-lean-is-holding-him-back/

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   • 

     Joe 2

     Aug 28, 2014 at 8:19 pm

     Indeed! Ball position and stance width!

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10. Pingback: Why a Tiger-Butch Reunion Won’t Happen | Spacetimeandi.com

11. 

    Ryan

    Aug 26, 2014 at 10:01 pm

    All speculation…

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12. 

    Toots

    Aug 26, 2014 at 8:54 pm

    I think Tiger made the decision long before dropping Foley. I don’t take him as a guy that would fire his coach then decide what is next sort of guy. If I am wrong it is only because he is going to try and go at it on his own and then make a call if need be. I would love to see Harmon come back and while I agree that Phil would have a problem with it we are assuming he and Phil get along well…which we don’t really know.

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13. 

    moses

    Aug 26, 2014 at 7:35 pm

    I really like what Butch has done with Ricky. 🙂
    If you look at Butch Harmon’s past history he has a habit of producing winners. On the surface it would seem to appear Tiger thought it was all him. I would guesstimate it wa 70 30. But that 30 was ALOT.

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14. 

    Martin

    Aug 26, 2014 at 5:39 pm

    I can’t help but feel a big “Who Cares” is in order here.

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    • 

      Dustin

      Aug 26, 2014 at 8:21 pm

      You care so little that you felt the need to comment? That makes sense…

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      • 

        Martin

        Aug 26, 2014 at 8:44 pm

        It was sort of a derisive comment about the lead story being on why Butch and Tiger won’t pair up, must be a slow week.

        Wait a minute, the second leg of the Fedex cup is on, the Ryder Cup picks are coming shortly, Can Rory win again this week, Mahan comes back from a long Paternity Leave, Furyk lets another one go, Kuch’s back is OK for the Ryder Cup…never mind.

        Maybe Tiger should go back to the driving range he first hit balls on with Earl and the magic will happen again.

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        • 

          Jeremy

          Aug 26, 2014 at 11:18 pm

          See, now that’s a proper comment 😉

          And, honestly, I sort of care. I wasn’t playing golf when that era was taking place, and now that I’m so into it I hang out on golf blogs I’ve been curious what all the tension is about between those two.

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        • 

          Rich

          Aug 27, 2014 at 3:52 am

          Couldn’t agree more. There must have been something more interesting to write about. No story worth telling after the Barclays? Of course not. Let’s write a story about a guy THAT ISN’T EVEN PLAYING IN THE PLAYOFFS! TigerWRX strikes again.

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          • 

            Knobbywood

            Aug 27, 2014 at 10:54 am

            Tiger = views = ad $ …. Its not that complicated… All these who cares and another tiger article comments… Save it people… Nobody cares that you don’t care… Get used to it

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          • 

            Rich

            Aug 27, 2014 at 5:48 pm

            Knobbywood,
            I wouldn’t care if there we’re complete coverage of what’s going on but to cover Tiger to the exclusion of other events in the golfing world to me is ridiculous. Tiger might = bums on seats so to speak but what’s wrong with covering the other important news. Tiger’s not going to be around forever.

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15. 

    Big Tony

    Aug 26, 2014 at 4:54 pm

    don’t sleep on mike adams @medalist gc, being ‘the one’ to get tiger back to thinking about ball flight, and away from thinking about trackman numbers. mike is prob the best man for the job at this point for a couple reasons, (1) access, he works at tiger’s club, (2) he doesn’t care for the limelight, (3) there’s no disputing he knows his onions when it comes to the swing.

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16. 

    Jimmy

    Aug 26, 2014 at 4:49 pm

    Maybe that clown Brandel Chamblee will quit the golf channel and be his coach he seems to think he knows all about fixing tigers swing

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    • 

      TW

      Aug 26, 2014 at 6:54 pm

      Do you need a moment to gather yourself? Its not like brandel doesn’t have some good points

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17. 

    Dpavs

    Aug 26, 2014 at 4:09 pm

    Just a few points;
    1. It’s a misleading statement (not even true really) that Tiger drove the ball better in 2013 and 2012 than he had since the early 2000’s. His driving has been historically erratic from year to year but there is no real parallel you can draw here. This statement also ignores the fact that in 2009 tiger had a Driving Accuracy Percentage 64.29% and a Driving Distance of 298.4. Which is better than either 2013 or 2014.

    2. I agree that it ain’t gonna happen… for most of the reasons stated and also because Phil would be an absolute lunatic if he did not boycott such a proposition. I don’t think Harmon would want to risk that long standing and amicable relationship.

    3. It’s ridiculous to defend Foley’s work with Tiger (if it even needs defending) based on his getting a more aged Tiger as a student. That’s just non-sense. He essentially got the same player Haney did. Woods won eight majors under Harmon’s tutelage and six with Haney and he won absolutely zippo, nada, nil majors under Foley.

    4. You forgot to mention that Tiger is a head case. He’s had some of the best coaches money can buy and they have all had reasonable success working with him… most of the reasons for the partings prior to Foley have not been for lack of success… he’s just plain and simple a head case.. why else would you leave coaches who helped you to some of the most successful years in your career. The only coach this does not hold true for is Foley.. so if there are grounds for him to have ever left anyone based on his performance.. it would be his leaving Foley.

    5. Haney was right when he said Tiger is probably better off alone at this point. Why? See #4 above. This quote from Haney says it all.. “He certainly knows enough,” Haney said Tuesday on “Morning Drive”. “I think he’d probably be better off just going and doing it himself. He’s the one that he’ll listen to the most. He’s the one that he’s always listened to the most.”

    6. Harmon or anybody who is well established would need to be suicidal to take Tiger on now. If he goes with anyone I could foresee him going to some up and comer who is still making a name for himself.. someone with nothing to lose and everything to gain.

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    • 

      Kevin Casey

      Aug 26, 2014 at 10:43 pm

      Love the thorough response. Always great to see that.

      To go point by point:

      1. There is a bit of conjecture here, as more of the advanced stats only go back to 2008. But if you went off of driving distance and accuracy alone, 2012 and 2013 are some of his best. Yes, he had a higher driving accuracy percentage in 2009, but the percentage isn’t important, his ranking compared to the rest of the Tour is. And the ranking in 2009 here is 86th, whereas he was 69th and 55th in 2013 and 2012, respectively. And when it comes to distance, I don’t think the general “driving distance” stat is the best. That only counts one drive per nine holes, with each drive being on a hole where driver is the extreme likely tee club of choice. The stat tries to identify who hits it farthest with the driver. What that doesn’t account for is that some players are aggressive and others are conservative off the tee. Maybe “driving distance” tells us a guy hits the big dog 310 on average, but if he’s pulling out a 3-wood or an iron on basically every tee, that 310 average means very little. It’s only telling us what his potential is if he hit a Tour average number of drivers per round. If he’s hitting a lot more three-woods and irons than the average Tour player, his real distance per tee shot is a lot less.

      That’s why I like “Driving Distance- All Drives.” As it implies, the stat measures all drives a player makes in a year (or at least every one that is measured by a laser). In this way, we see how much distance a player really gets on their drives, based on their combination of power and tee box strategy. Using this metric, we find that Woods in 2012 and 2009 had virtually the same average distance on his drive (he placed somewhere ranked in the 30s). He’s actually most hurt in 2013, where his extreme conservative strategy knocks him down to 95th.

      Based on this, I think tweaking my statement to “some of his best driving since the early 2000s” is appropriate. Because he was a better driver in 2009 than 2013 based on these stats, but the best of those three years from the tee box was 2012.

      Even if 2013 is worse than 2009, I still think it’s better than basically any other year since the early 2000s. His distance was significantly down from the mid-2000s, but his accuracy was way better. And while he still suffered from “The Big Miss” (155th in distance from edge of fairway in 2013), my assumption is that he would finish basically dead last in that category (190s or worse) if it measured the 2004-2007 years. That’s again conjecture, but based on the fact that his off the planet misses at that time were the stuff of legend. (For the record, his Distance From Edge of Fairway numbers from 2009, 2012 and 2013 are 135th, 147th and 155th. Which doesn’t change anything when it comes to ranking those three seasons in driving.)

      So, I agree that the statement could use a bit of tweaking, but I don’t think it’s even close to entirely false based on the (admittedly limited) data we have.

      2. Not much else to say here. Phil’s reaction would be interesting. I don’t know that Phil is a lunatic if he lets Butch and Tiger re-unite. If Phil really believes that Harmon helps him out a lot, it’s not worth potentially straining their relationship or ending it altogether based on Butch’s affinity for Tiger.

      3. I think you can absolutely defend his work with Foley. It wasn’t the greatest player-coach partnership in history, but it was quite fruitful. I stand by the fact that he absolutely had a different Tiger than previous coaches. Aging is a real thing and a hindrance to a player’s game. This wasn’t going to affect Tiger under Butch or Haney because he was in his 20s or early 30s. But under Foley, he was reaching his later 30s, when golfers tend to start losing their skills a bit. Injuries also take their toll. Harmon had very little to deal with there, as did Haney for much of his tenure. But Tiger couldn’t stop getting injured at the beginning of his dalliance with Foley and he remains prone to them. And you could easily argue that Tiger has a weakened mental game since his November 2009 adventure. Add all of that up and you have a weakened Tiger in the Foley-era regardless of the instructor’s influence. And let’s also not forget that Haney was really last Tiger’s coach in 2009 (I know they split in 2010, but it was very early on in Woods’ season), and Foley didn’t really get to work with a weakened, but fully operational Tiger until 2012. So there’s a gap in time there as well.

      And if you still don’t believe me, just look at Tiger’s club head speed. It was around 125 at his peak, good for tops (or 2nd or 3rd) on Tour. By 2012-2013, that speed dropped around 120, which is barely top-10 on Tour. That may not sound like a huge difference, but it is for a guy who used power as a key weapon to dominate for so long. That’s what happens as you age, you aren’t able to get the same club head speed, it has nothing to do with the swing Foley helped employ.

      So I really don’t see how Foley’s version of Tiger wasn’t already diminished. When you realize that, you see that eight PGA Tour wins in the two years we have useful data is pretty good stuff. Woods averaged about 6 wins and a major per year in his peak, but he’s no longer that guy regardless of who teaches him. Four per year with plenty at high profile events (in his post-prime state) is a solid record, if still something that can be improved on.

      4. He definitely has an interesting way of going about swing instructors. Very unusual in the history of golf. But Woods actually left Haney (or Haney “resigned”) at a very similar point to Foley’s. He left Haney after a very successful 2009 (and 2008, 2007, etc.), but did so due to extenuating circumstances (adultery) interrupting his golf game in 2010. Woods canned Foley after a very successful 2013 (and 2012), but did so due to extenuating circumstances in 2014 (i.e. he missed a good portion of the year, and played significantly injured in most events he participated in). So I don’t agree that he left Foley for performance. You can’t count 2014 because of all of the injuries wrecking havoc. That means the last true performance we can look to is 2013, and the partnership was thriving then.

      5. He could be better off alone, he could not. Who knows at this point, Tiger is such an enigma that it’s impossible to figure out.

      6. There isn’t a ton of upside here for a renowned teacher, I definitely agree. I think there would still be a few who took the bait though if Tiger asked. But, really early in the process here, so again, who knows.

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      • 

        Dave

        Aug 26, 2014 at 11:07 pm

        For most of your counterpoints I can see both sides of the argument, I just find myself on the other side this time 🙂

        Just one additional comment thought about his swing speed under Foley.. obviously his injuries have always had an effect on his play but I think the diminishing swing speed you see by years 2012 and 2013 are more a by-product of his quieting his lower body… certainly you can argue that this was perhaps something that was encouraged by his wanting to avoid re-aggravating his back… but I’m not sure that even absent the back injury Foley would not have worked with Tiger to quiet that lower body a bit more than he had in the past in an effort to get back to the higher levels of consistency he enjoyed in his best years.

        Thanks Kevin, nice job on all this!

        Reply Report comment
18. 

    Desmond

    Aug 26, 2014 at 4:09 pm

    It’s been real for at least 10 years that Butch and Tiger wouldn’t be kissing under a tree. But at least the hope was a positive one with a hopeful tone. That’s more than you can say about a lot of discussion on the internet.

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19. 

    Dalt

    Aug 26, 2014 at 4:06 pm

    Because Butch was getting so much credit for Tiger’s game, he was dropped in favor of Hank. Tiger did the same thing to Fluff because he made a commercial w/o Tiger’s knowledge or approval. He dropped Stevie because Stevie caddied for Scott while Tiger was laid up. These events transpired because of Tiger’s ego. It’s all about Tiger. With hindsight being the ol’ infamous 20/20, Tiger’s ego has cost him that which he cherished most, Nicklaus’record. Tiger, wake up, you ain’t gonna catch Jack. It’s over.

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    • 

      Chris

      Aug 26, 2014 at 8:44 pm

      Tiger dropped Harmon in part because he wasn’t returning Tiger’s calls. For a $million or so a year, you’d think he could call him back. That may not be the only reason but it was part of it. Same thing happened with Harmon and Norman, too.

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      • 

        Jake

        Jun 27, 2023 at 1:31 pm

        There was no million dollars a year. Butch wrote in his book that he had a ten year contract with Tiger and he was paid $50,000 a year and Tiger never paid him a penny over that.

        Reply Report comment
20. 

    Ben

    Aug 26, 2014 at 3:54 pm

    All about egos and attitude. Pretty sad. Why? The same reason everyone is screaming for them to get back together… Tiger was playing his best golf when he was with Butch.

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    • 

      Dalt

      Aug 26, 2014 at 4:10 pm

      When he was with Harmon, he was unbeatable. Winning majors by 12 shots. Shooting unheard of scores at the U.S. Open. He blew it and now he can just dream about what might have been if he had swallowed his pride and stayed with Butch.

      Reply Report comment
21. 

    Bryan

    Aug 26, 2014 at 3:41 pm

    It won’t happen because Butch has been on record saying it will never happen…he reiterated yesterday that he won’t, and Tiger “won’t call”.

    There’s your article…

    Reply Report comment
22. 

    Jack A.

    Aug 26, 2014 at 3:33 pm

    Well . .. someone had to bring us back to reality.

    Reply Report comment
23. 

    snakesnot

    Aug 26, 2014 at 3:15 pm

    probably won’t happen…but it would be for the best.

    Reply Report comment
24. 

    Michael Howes

    Aug 26, 2014 at 3:10 pm

    I enjoyed the read Kevin

    Reply Report comment
25. 

    Gary hacker

    Aug 26, 2014 at 2:59 pm

    Agreed. Never happening. Great article

    Reply Report comment

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